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06/30/2021 Washington D.C. (International Christian Concern) – Is Canada taking advantage of the lockdowns to control religious practices? Jeff King sits down with Canadian pastor Artur Pawlowski who has been arrested multiple times for defying police orders to shut down his church last year. Pastor Pawlowski strongly believes the Canadian government used 2020 as a means to squander religious freedom and target his church to prohibit worship on the Holiest day of the year.

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Transcript:

Jeff King: Welcome to the Into the Deep, Pastor Pawlowski. There is a video of you floating around. Everybody has seen this thing or at least a whole bunch of people. And a dramatic video of you throwing out a health inspector and some police that came along with it. They were trying to, if I understand it, shut down your church on Easter Sunday, the holiest day of the year for Christians probably.

And so before we get into that, I just want to say thank you for being on and tell us a little bit about yourself.

Artur Pawlowski: Well, thank you very much for having me in. While the story is complicated and it did many loops but, as you can tell, I grew up behind Iron Curtain in Poland under the boots of the Soviets. So why is this important? It’s important because I grew up in a country that was destroyed by communism, socialism, and Fascism.

I remember the stories from my grandparents and the older generation of atrocities that the Germans did, the Fascist, the Gestapo, the SS, the murders of civilians, the rapes. My Grandma had to hide under the bed when the German soldier was raping other girls. Those stories you hear over and over again and myself, I grew up in a city [inaudible 00:01:53] where we had a concentration camp. Germans had a concentration camp in my city and we used to play as kids at the bunkers of the concentration camp. So the history was very, very real for us. It was not something you read in the books. It was not only because some people were telling you about it. It was all over the place. We still had bullet holes in some buildings from the times of the Fascist.

And of course, growing up under Communist dictatorship was the same thing. Communists, the only thing they are good at is destruction. And that’s what people do not understand. They are the destroyers of everything. Destroyers of liberty. Destroyers of moral standards. Destroyers of economy. When the socialists and communists take over anything, it’s a disaster in just a few years. And that’s just a fact, historical fact. You don’t have to be very smart to just go and Google it up, Venezuela for example. Or, go to China for a month and try to live your life as a free person that God created you. Go to Russia. Actually, now it’s weird because Russia is freer than Canada. Irony, right? We escape dictatorship of the Soviets, only to find out that Canada is now worse than Soviets are right now.

So I grew up under this. You could be arrested for whatever reason they thought you could be arrested for. For example, you listen to an outside news. The only thing that they were allowing you to listen was their propaganda so from newspapers to radio, TV, it was non-stop propaganda, non-stop the government was telling you how to think and what is acceptable, what’s not. It was the government that was allowing you and telling you about every aspect of your life. If you dared, and listen to me, if you dared to look for the facts outside of the propaganda, you were the enemy of the state. For example, if you were listening to the European radio and you were caught.

And the problem of this was that the snitches were everywhere. The whole system was so corrupted that people, your own family people, could be snitches and you would never know that they were actually working for the communistic government. And if they said, “Hey. Mr. Pawlowski was listening to a European radio. How dare he? That’s against the law,” you could go to jail for five years. If you were caught reading a book that was prohibited by the communists, you could go to jail. But you didn’t just go to jail. You were tortured first. You were beaten. They love to arrest people five in the morning when you’re naked or you’re in your pajamas. That was an additional benefit to do those tyrants when they could arrest people in the middle of the night.

You were dragged, tortured, beaten, and then you would say to yourself, “Surely, I’ve done nothing wrong. The courts will vindicate me because we have constitution.” That’s what the people do not understand. Just because you have a law, that doesn’t mean you are protected by that law because the tyrants do not care about your human rights. They do not care about your constitution. They are gangsters in uniform. And that’s what we are seeing right now for the past 15 months. We have gangsters, dressed as police officers. We have gangsters dressed as the peace officers, dressed as the AHS, disguising themselves as servants of the people but they are now working against the people. And that’s exactly what was happening in Poland under the Soviets. You had police officers that were just gangsters. And that’s what they were. They could beat you up and there was no accountability.

There was a law of the country… Poland was the second country on earth that had the constitution right after the United States of America. Throughout this ordeal with the Soviets from 1945 when the Europe and the whole world was celebrating the end of the Fascist, the Nazi Regime, Polish people were taken over by another tyrant, Stalin. He took over Poland and even though from 1945 to 1989, when the communists collapsed, we had a constitution. But the problem is, no one followed it. You go to court and you say, “Your Honor, I have my rights,” but the courts and the judges only did what they were told to do by the communistic party. So you had 50,000 people that were ruling over 36 million Poles.

And that’s what people do not understand. Just because you have a Constitution, it means nothing if the enforcers, the gangsters, want to deprive you from your rights. They can do it if they have enough power. That’s why what is happening to me particularly, what is happening in our church, is so important for the whole world to understand. That even though you have your laws and you have your protections, if the government turns wrong and becomes a tyrant, you have no rights. You’ve got to fight for them. You’ve got to stand up. And I fear, this is what I fear, I fear that if people will wait a little bit longer, those tyrants are going to get stronger and stronger and stronger and if one day you’re going to wake up and you say, “I need to fight this,” you might not have the opportunity to fight those people at all.

And I’m not talking about guns and swords. I’m not talking about murdering politicians. Don’t get me wrong. I’m just saying, peaceful resistance, Civil Rights Movement, Mahatma Gandhi-style, Martin Luther King Jr.-style, Martin Luther, the German Monk-style, Reformation, civil disobedience etc,. So what happened to me for the past 15 months, I had a taste of what I had in Poland growing up under communists and what I heard from my grandparents and the older generation. So the tactics of the want-to-be tyrants are this: We’re going to pass a law. We will say it’s legal. And we can do whatever we want to do with your lives. You have no rights whatsoever because we say so. And everything we’re doing is legal.

So let me just add something to you historically, you got to remember everything Adolf Hitler did was legal. It was the law. Everything was lawful according to the Nazi party. Everything Stalin did was lawful according to the communistic party. Everything the Chinese government is doing in China, according to them, it’s lawful. And this is what people do not understand. That when you lose your rights and the tyrants take over a country, it’s extremely difficult without bloodshed to take your country back and restore it to a country that will follow law and order. And that’s exactly what is happening in Canada. Those people are depriving us from our rights.

Jeff King: So Pastor, I assume that your response was shaped by growing up in Eastern Europe. You grew up in Poland, controlled by the communists. I’m sure that has really shaped your experience, your thinking, and the interpretation of what happened. Is that fair to say?

Artur Pawlowski: Yes.

Jeff King: So Pastor, I want to start with the video. A lot of people have seen this. It’s created all kinds of controversy and different opinions. And it really delves into a lot of different things but for right now, let’s watch the video.

Jeff King: Well, Pastor, again that is… I’m not even sure how to put a question together. That was strong behavior we saw and I’m sure there’s a lot that’s gone into that. We’ll unpack that. But just walk me through that. What happened that day and what was going on? Why did you react like that?

Artur Pawlowski: Well, to understand why I reacted the way that I did, we have to go back a year before when this craziness started. So I received an email, a letter from the government saying that they have to stop feeding the homeless people because of the pandemic so what do-

Jeff King: You have to stop feeding them?

Artur Pawlowski:  Yes.

Jeff King: Gotcha. Okay.

Artur Pawlowski: That’s what I do for the past 22 years. I feed the homeless people. I take care of the people that are under the bridges, in bushes, and we provide necessity supply for those people. We help them any way, shape, or form we can. And to understand why it’s important for us to be there is that 50% of the people we deal with are mentally ill. Why? Because in their wisdom, the government of Canada, has shut down all the mental institutions and just let them go. So those people are not your typical homeless people. Some of them don’t even comprehend or understand what’s really going on but they need to eat.

If they’re not going to receive the necessity supply from, let’s say, an organization like ours, they’re going to get it by whacking your head, breaking into the car, stealing from your garage or robbing your house. This way or that way, a man will get his portion of food. So what we decided to do a long time ago. We decided that four times a week, so every second day, we’re going to provide those necessity supply for those people. They can come and they can take for the next day. So hopefully, they will not hurt anyone in order to get what they need to survive for that day. And that’s how we have been operating for many years.

Government, in March of 2020, send me a letter saying I have to stop doing it because we are in the middle of pandemic. And we danced around. We physically distanced the people. We asked them to wear a mask and we did everything we could to accommodate the wishes of the government. However, that was not good enough for them and that’s where it clicked to me for the first time that this is not about health. It has nothing to do with health. It has everything to do with forceful compliance, dictatorship, control, overreach of the government. And I disagreed. I said, “I have to keep feeding those people. I’ll do everything in my power to do what you want me to do to keep people safe. However, I have to keep feeding them.” And they disagree.

 So 12 officers shows up. I’m feeding people and giving them something hot. And they said I have just broken the law. They gave me $1,200 ticket. They assaulted one of our parishioners. And also, they threatened me with arrest and a million dollar ticket. So I said, “There’s something weird going on with this whole situation.” And that’s how it started this craziness. In a few months, I’d end up with another ticket. The police would show up. Video tape us. Intimidate my parishioners. Harass our volunteers. And this was going on until December.

In December, they reached a peak point when we received an information from the federal, provincial, and municipal government and here is what they said. They said, “We’re canceling Christmas. There is no Christmas. Christmas is not illegal. You cannot see your parents. You cannot have family dinner. You cannot have your brother or your sister at home.” And off they went to Hawaii. They went to Europe for holidays. They went to Barbados, Belize. So the government officials locked us completely in their homes while they themselves just gave themselves a raise and off they went with their families for holidays. That was such an open hypocrisy of the highest levels.

So I sent the information back to the government and they said, “You know what? We’re canceling you but we’re not canceling Christmas and definitely you cannot cancel God-“

Jeff King: Let me pause. Let me ask you a question. What did you get back to them, you said? I didn’t understand that.

Artur Pawlowski: Well, they said they’re canceling Christmas so I said to them, I said, “I’m canceling you. You’re useless. You are not wanted, needed. You are tyrants now. You’re liars. You’re cheaters. You have turned against the people. You should resign. All of you. Every one of you that is participating in this charade, you resign immediately and we will vote for people that actually are for people, by the people, not New World Order, want-to-be tyrants that don’t respect their own rules and laws because, like I said, they just locked us in our homes and yet they themselves, they didn’t respect their own laws and they left the country and their homes, vacationing during the Christmas celebration.

So I invited the whole community to come. We did a Christmas celebration. We had carolers. We had musicians. We had speeches, testimonies. We fed people, hundreds of them. And we had, hundreds of gifts for the homeless people. We had an amazing celebration. However, we also had over 100 police officers, 52 police cars. We had 20 cops on bicycles. And we were videotaped. Pictures. Intimidation. Harassment. Some people end up with tickets. I end up with 11 COVID tickets from that day. That’s an outdoor event. I run-

Jeff King: What were the total fines?

Artur Pawlowski: Oh, it’s in millions of dollars right now. So we don’t know really because every time you get a COVID ticket, it’s now up to a million each. So it could be 20 million dollars. No one knows actually because this whole thing is a sham. It’s a big fat lie. It’s only a tool to intimidate and harass people. It’s a medical tyranny. That’s what we’re facing right now. It’s a hybrid between Fascism and communism so that’s how we were playing outside. Feeding of the homeless, unacceptable. However-

Jeff King: Celebration was outside?

Artur Pawlowski: Yes, everything was outside. However, the Muslims can meet and they are meeting on the regular basis and no harassment. To this day, not one Imam received a ticket. Not one Imam was arrested under those orders, even though we have video evidence, picture evidence of them regularly meeting in their mosques and no harassment, no police, no AHS, health inspectors harassing, intimidating them.

Going back to the story, I also pastor another church. And that’s the video you were referring to. It’s a church in the building where I teach theology and history. And here we have people coming and listening to the teachings and I started to have authorities outside of our doors. So here, it was one day, I’m coming to the church to open the doors and the police, alongside peace officers, bylaw officers, and health inspector, they block our parking lot with their vehicles which is, of course, dangerous. Second, it’s illegal. So that’s a pure intimidation and harassment tactics. So I’ve told them, “You’re trespassing. Get out of our property. You’re not allowed to do that.” And about an hour later, they left. They wanted to come into the church to inspect the church. Well, we disagreed. We said, “You’re not welcome in this capacity with your guns and with your tasers, with your handcuffs inside the church where people are on their knees and praying and crying to God and there’s worship. That’s unacceptable behavior.”

And also, people have to understand that we are supposed to be protected under the Criminal Code of Canada Section 176 and this is what it says, “You cannot interfere or harass an officiating clergyman while he’s on his way, during or after he has been officiating a church service.” And that’s two times jail time if you interfere. Also, there is another section that says, “You cannot harass, interfere a church gathering as well. That’s five years’ jail time.”

However, they don’t care about the law and that’s an indication to me that we are being taken over by communism. The moment the law enforcers, if you will, the agents of the state, do not care about the law, you know you have a lawless system and those people are no longer police officers. They’re gangsters with guns. That’s what they are. They’re gangsters. They’re brown shirts of other Hitler. They’re the Nazis. They’re the communists. They have total disregard to the law, the law of the land, the highest law of the land, and they are implementing their own laws. And that’s exactly what the other Hitler and Stalin respectively did, and all those want-to-be tyrants.

Going back forward, a few weeks later they showed up outside of our property and here’s what they were doing. They were videotaping. They were taking pictures with those big lenses of our children, our women. And those are, again, the tactics of the KGB, the tactics of Gestapo. If they cannot get you as a man, they’re going to take pictures of your women and your children. Why? So they can come back to you and say, “Listen, we will not maybe do anything to you but hey, be careful because we know where your wife works. We know where your children go to school.” Pure intimidation tactics of Gestapo and the KGB. That’s why I called them what I’ve called them. People do not understand. We are being harassed for 15 months, not just one time, not twice. Many times, like 50 times, maybe more. Maybe 100 times during this 15 months period of time. So this is not the first time that they showed up. They showed up many times and same tactics, force, guns, threats, tickets. And I got, up to now, I got look. I got a whole-

Jeff King: These are all your tickets?

Artur Pawlowski: …stack of all kinds of documents. All kinds of court orders. All kinds of intimidation tactics or closure and we give you a million dollar ticket. We give you this. We’ll arrest you. We’ll arrest your wife.

Jeff King: Did you get a million dollar ticket?

Artur Pawlowski: It doesn’t say. It’s not a specified price. What they do is a mandatory court appearance and the price will be specified by the judge.

Now going back to the Easter, for people that don’t understand, Easter is a very important time of the year for us Christians because it’s a Passover time. It’s where Jesus was crucified, where Jesus was resurrected, where our hope comes from because Jesus paid the price for our sins-

Jeff King: Holiest day of the year. Is that fair to say?

Artur Pawlowski: Yeah. And also I was preparing for a long time with the church. People were fasting and I was preparing a service titled, Let My People Go from Exodus with Moses and Aaron. So now, we are opening the church, we are preparing. The prayer warriors are praying and the worshipers are preparing their choir. And then suddenly, I look to my left and what do I see? I see those people walking in with their gear, with their guns, with the whole nine yards, like it was a restaurant. Nothing is holy for the communists. You got to understand. Nothing is secret for those people. They don’t care. They don’t care about moral standards. They don’t care about the law. They are making up law as they go. And what I had in my heart was a very simple message. And I started really bright. If you listen to the whole video, at the beginning I said, “Please get out.” I said that. But they would not budge. They would not move so everything started to intensify. It took me 30 times to tell them, “Get out.”

Jeff King: I heard it. It was amazing.

Artur Pawlowski: And eventually, they did, only to come back three weeks later with a court order. And here’s a fascinating thing about this court order. They managed to get the judge to sign the court order giving them enormous power. Of course, unconstitutional power, power against everything that this country stood for, the rule of law. In the preamble to our constitution to the Charter Rights and Freedoms, here is what it says, “Whereas Canada acknowledges the supremacy of God,” so that’s number one, supremacy of God. And then the number two is, “And the rule of law.” Right now, what we’re seeing right now is the supremacy of God is out the window and there is no rule of law. They arrest people based on orders that were never intended to give them that kind of power.

So this judge is telling them this: “You can enter a church from eight AM to eight PM anytime you want with whomever you want every day of the week if that’s what you want. And you can use any force necessary to obtain that access. And you can arrest anyone you want using any force you deem necessary. And you can arrest me, so the pastor, wherever he is without a warrant.” So they can break the door. They can take me anytime they want, wherever I am without additional warrants from the court so that’s Gestapo. That’s KGB style. So people are saying, “Why are you calling those nice peace officers, police officers Gestapo?” Because they’re acting like Gestapo. They’re acting as agents of the tyrants.

Jeff King: But to be fair, that court order came later. The name-calling came before that.

Artur Pawlowski: Yeah, after 15 months of being harassed.

Jeff King: Understood. Just trying to be clear. Yep.

Artur Pawlowski: So now, I did what I did before. I tried to read the court order. I did attempt to read it but this woman, this want-to-be Gestapo, kept interrupting me. So I’m reading it and I’m trying to understand what this court is saying and she keeps interrupting. So finally, I say, “You know what? I’m not going to deal with this. Talk to the lawyers. Let the lawyers figure it out because this court, they managed to receive ex parte. And I was never notified about the court proceedings. Our lawyers, which they know we’ve had for 15 months, were never notified. They went secretly. It’s a secret court meetings to get court orders secretly and now they’re implementing this court order against the guy that never knew that this was happening, never had the chance to defend myself and challenge this court order, nothing. It was like total lawlessness. We can do whatever-

Jeff King: They found a friendly judge and rammed that through. Right?

Artur Pawlowski: That’s right. So now, they’ve left. I conducted the church service and they came back half hour later and they tried to do the same thing with Peter, our associate pastor.

Jeff King: That same day after the video?

Artur Pawlowski: That’s right.

Jeff King: Okay.

Artur Pawlowski: The first original video that was watched, that was told over a billion times, the most popular video that was watched during the Easter weekend, after that three weeks later, we posted two videos, my interaction with the authorities when they handed me a piece of paper that I tried to read but they kept interrupting me and then the second time, when they showed up half an hour later with Pastor Peter. Here is an interesting part: The judge has given them power to walk into the sanctuary while people are praying with whomever they want so they showed up with a SWAT team. They came with the anti-terrorist group to intimidate the Christians even more.

And like I said before, they are not doing this to Muslims. There is not one incident in this country that a SWAT team came to Imam with the same force, with the same power, and intimidated them while they were worshiping God. That’s unheard of. That’s insanity because they know if they did that to Muslims, their heads would be chopped off. Police station would be blown up to pieces. So they’re only doing this to Christians, not to anybody else.

Fast forward, we opened the church the next week and we did an outdoor event-

Jeff King: Pastor, sorry. I’m not sure we closed the door on that. So the SWAT team shows up, talking with the associate pastor. What happens?

Artur Pawlowski: They left. Pastor said the same thing I said. Then they left and nothing transpired out of this day.

Next week, another church service and knew that this court because at this time, I had a chance to talk to the lawyer. The lawyer advised me that they actually managed to get some judge that agreed with this craziness and they have broken the law of the land but they it so according to them, this is a lawful order just like to communists and the Gestapo did before. According to them, all they did was lawful. Murder of six million Jews was lawful. It was according to the law and it was done in a lawful way.

was advised by our lawyers to open the door if they want to come back and inspect the facility. The judge is giving them that power and they advised me to do it so I did it. Instead of allowing them to come in while we were worshiping outside, we did the church outdoors. And we were outside and the door was open for them to come in. And you know what they did? They refused to go in. All those months, they did everything in their power to inspect the facility. When finally I said, “Okay, come. Inspect. Do whatever you came to do,” they refused to do it.

Another week passed and our lawyer contacted me and said, “You know what those people did? Even though you allowed them to come in, you opened the door, you made it public that they can, they have filed a contempt of court order based on the incident that was a week before when you had no chance to read the document, you were never notified about the proceedings, so they are playing dirty.” They are playing dirty. They are evil. Lying. Wicked. Gestapo, KGB tyrants. That’s what they are.” They don’t play fair. They are manipulating. They are lying. They are cheating. Their only purpose is not health and inspection because, if that was the case, they would walk in and do their inspection. They want to shut down Christian churches. That’s their motive. That’s what they’re trying to do, destroy Judeo-Christian values in our country in Canada.

So they refused to go in and next week happened and again, the SWAT team shows up.

Jeff King: You’re having church outside?

Artur Pawlowski: No, we had the church inside and the doors were open. They want to walk in, everyone was instructed to let the SWAT team come in if that’s what they want to do. The court was very clear. I have to do it or else. So I said, “Fine.” They’re putting heavy guns on me and let them walk if that’s what they want to do. We’ll see what happens. Let them do their inspection. And we were worshiping God and someone yelled to me and said, “Listen, Gestapo is here.” I said, “Okay. So I guess they’re going drag me from the pulpit.”

But they opened the door and this was the bizarre thing about this whole case. They opened the door, SWAT team, they have something in their hands. I didn’t know because I was in the front but I was told after the church. They had something in a Ziploc bag and they dropped it on the ground and they left. That’s it. They didn’t serve anything to anyone. They dropped something on the floor and they left.

And someone yells back to me and says, “Hey! The Gestapo is leaving!” And I said, “Oh!” So maybe they saw there’s too many people. They didn’t want to arrest me at the pulpit. I don’t know what happened. And they left. Not once, anyone attempted to read the document to me. No one sent it to my lawyer. No one send it to me. No officer came and told me, “Hey, we have a court order. Here it is in this Ziploc thing. Read it.” Nothing like this happened. They dropped it to the ground. And they left. And they considered this a served document. Can you imagine? According to them, they served me a legal document that I was not aware of and they left. So we packed the stuff, we went to the car. And again, no one presented me with anything. No one sent it to me electronically. No police officer came to me and says, “Hey. Read this or I’m going to read it to you.” Nothing.

We are on the way home. SWAT team stops me in the middle of the highway. We stopped. Officers surround us from right, left, behind. It was crazy. We opened the window and they said, “You’re under arrest for contempt of court order.” That was never served to me. That was never given to me in any shape or form, either physically or electronically. Was never passed to our lawyer for… It was done by ex parte again, without our knowledge, without our involvement. Total lawlessness.

Jeff King: Pastor, help me out with that phrase. It’s a legal phrase. Ex parte, meaning?

Artur Pawlowski: That means without your presence; without your chance to counterattack or to say, “Hey. This order is crazy. It’s unlawful,” giving you a chance to defend yourself. That means they would go to the judge without your knowledge or without you being part of the proceedings. And suddenly, they are slapping you with some kind of a court and you have no idea what is happening because you were never invited to be part of the proceedings. That’s ex parte.

So they turned to my brother David. He was behind me and they said, “You are under arrest as well.” And to this day, we don’t know why they arrested David because I was the pastor officiating. I opened the church. He didn’t. He’s just my brother. But my lawyer said that they just took him to hurt me. So we were arrested. That’s the video that circulated to global as well. And a very interesting part, it was that they threw me in a police van on my back. My brother was thrown into another police van, belly face down. And we both were threatened with a charge of assaulting a police officer.

So here’s what happened: Because this little box in the van was so small, it’s only intended for the prisoner to sit in a sitting position. So you’ve got bench. You’ve got a little bit tiny space between the benches and then you’ve got another bench. What they did to me. They threw me facing down and my feet were sticking out because this is not your bed transport so the feet are sticking out. And two police officers are trying to push my body into this little tiny place and it’s not fitting because it was never meant for a laying person to be transported that way. So one cop says to another, “If he kicks you, I’ll charge him with assaulting a police officer.” And I’m thinking to myself, “I’m being assaulted as we speak right now and they’re threatening to charge me with assault because they can’t fit my body inside this little space.” So it took awhile with my help.

So here is how I traveled for one hour: I traveled in that position, my head on the ground in the one corner and my feet sticking to the roof in another corner, laying on my handcuffed wrists which was unbelievable pain. And for one hour they kept me that way. They transferred us to jail. Later on, David, my brother said the same thing to me. They tried to do the same thing to him except he was face down on his belly. And they couldn’t fit him in that little space as well and they were pushing. And he says, “Art, at one time, I thought they were going to break my legs.” It was insane. It was pure intimidation harassment, torture if you will. They were torturing us at the very beginning and the torture continued because for the next 30 hours, we were thrown into a solitary confinement. We were deprived of sleep for three days and two nights. They did not allow us to sleep.

Jeff King: Meaning what? Just explain yourself please. How did they not allow you to sleep?

Artur Pawlowski: So they took us to the solitary confinement on concrete so you got a concrete place, no mattress, no pillow, no blanket, with powerful, powerful lights-

Jeff King: Lights on 24/7.

Artur Pawlowski: Yes, that are so bright that when you close your eyes, you still see a bright sun. It’s impossible to sleep. But even if, by some kind of a miracle, you were able to fall asleep, every half hour, an officer would come and bang on the doors. That’s what they did all day, all night, and all day the next day. There were some good cops over there as well. There was Staff Surgeon Campbell that came and he looked at the situation and this is what he says, “This is unacceptable. I don’t know what they’re doing to you but that’s just not right.” And he says, “I’ll try to get you out of this place as soon as possible. And maybe I’ll get you a blanket or a pillow or a mattress just for that few hours until you’re transferred to prison.” And he did.

It took awhile but eventually for the remaining two hours, we received a mattress and an Officer Daniels brought me a coffee. So at least in that remaining two hours in the police custody, I was treated a little bit better. I could not sleep, of course, but at least I was able to have a coffee and sit on a mattress because I don’t know if you have ever been in a position of sitting on the concrete or laying down on the concrete. The first few hours is not bad. You sit and then you’re sore so you lay down and then you change positions. But about 10 hours into this ordeal, every bone of your body is aching. You’re in extreme pain. You can’t sit. You can’t lay down. Laying on the concrete without anything on it, it’s a form of torture and that’s what they did to us. By not allowing us to have a blanket or to shut down the lights. For other inmates, they did shut down the lights. Not for us. So that’s how I know this was done purposely.

Jeff King: Is there more to the story?

Artur Pawlowski: Then we were taken to prison. I don’t know if you want me to describe what happened in prison.

Jeff King: Tell me. Go ahead.

Artur Pawlowski: So over there, with David we were commenting on that you have a Nazi-type individuals and then you’ve got good cops and exactly the same thing was in prison. We were taken, handcuffed, and transferred to prison with the martial or the cops that are doing the transfer and then we were greeted by another set of Nazis. We were thrown into this filthiest cell you can imagine. They called it, Tank. And you got to remember that all of this is happening to us in the name of health. Right? All of this is happening because they’re concerned about our health. They are concerned about the health of people and we are being thrown into this filth. It looks like someone went and peed all over the cell. You could see the mold on the walls and on the ceiling. No one painted that stuff since 1992 when someone was writing graffiti on the wall since that day. And all of that is done to us in the name of health.

During our stay in prison, because we were never taken to cells. They never allowed us to go and have a bed and go to cell and be properly processed. They never allowed it but I’ll get to that story. So all of this is being done to us in the name of health. About 20 other inmates during that period of time were taken to the same cell. So if this was a deadly virus, if this was leprosy or whatever, we would all have it because there was a non-stop cross contamination between the inmates back and forth. And no one brought us sanitizers. No one cleaned the place after inmates were changing the places. Nothing like that. It was a mockery of the whole situation.

Around 11:30 at night, so that’s our second day and second night, an officer comes and he looks at this and he’s physically shaken and he says, “What they’re doing to you is just wrong and unlawful.” We were denied access to our lawyers and when he heard that, immediately he said, “You can call your lawyers anytime. This is wrong. What they’ve done to you, it’s wrong. It’s unlawful. And I’m going to try to fix this.” So he goes on the phone and for three hours… So that’s our second night and a second day, we’re deprived of sleep. He’s fighting with the superiors, trying to process us so we can be taken to a proper cell with a bed, blanket, a mattress, like normal conditions, not in a tank on concrete.

And he fails. Three hours later, he comes back and he says, “My superior officers, they said no. They just said no. They’re not allowing you to have a bed.” But we realized, we’re in big trouble; that those people really want to hurt us. We are already guilty according to them without a trial.

Jeff King: You’re to be made an example.

Artur Pawlowski: Yes. And that backfired on them of course because we are not your typical people. We’re not going to be intimidated by Fascists and communists and that’s what I said to them. I said, “We Polish people, we survived Nazis. We survived communists. We’re going to survive police. We’re not going to go down just because you want us.” So I was shoved on the wall. They put chains on my ankles. They actually stolen my property, believe it or not. They took my property and they threw it in front of us, in front of the cameras and other officers. They threw it in the garbage. And I said, “What are you doing? That’s unlawful. You cannot do stuff like this.”

So he shoved me on the wall and he said, “Oh, are we going to have a problem with you?” I said, “I have a problem with you because you’re a lawbreaker. You’re a gangster. You’re nothing more than a gangster right now.”

So anyway, they thought that maybe we would cry and we would be broken and we’re going to be intimidated. No, they’ll have to shoot me dead. I’m not going to be intimidated by Nazis and communists.

Fast forward, we were taken to processing unit, stripped naked, searched, our belongings, everything, taken away from us. And then we were given the blue jumpsuits and the orange boots and then eventually, three in the morning, this officer that was shaking and tried to get us to be taken to a cell, he comes and he says, “There is nothing I can do for you and let me try to get you a mattress at least so you can sit somewhere.” And that’s what he did. 5:30 in the morning, we were taken to court. Clothes were given back to us because this is a Queen’s Bench which is higher court over there. You can appear in your own personal clothes. Our clothes were given back to us except my personal belongings that were thrown and were still in a garbage bin by one of the officers.

Jeff King: What were those personal belongings?

Artur Pawlowski: It was just a game that we did, soccer balls and Tik Tok game that we were playing while we were in their cells. So that’s why they took it. I think they realized we’re not broken. We’re having a good time. We’re playing games with my brother David and they didn’t like that at all. They wanted us to just sit and be miserable. And the idea for us to actually not cracking under the pressure was unacceptable. That’s why they threw it away. We were taken to court, transferred, had to wait for four hours for the lawyers. Then finally, we were able to see the lawyers. Interesting part is that the lawyers told us, of course, afterwards that they sent the messages everywhere asking them to pass information to us that they need to talk to us. They were not notified of our transport. They were not notified where we were. They denied our access to the lawyers. The lawyers asked for them to pass the information that they need to talk to us. That was never done.

Now, we are in front of the judge. The judge orders them to release us and he says, “I want them to be released as soon as possible.” They didn’t do that. Seven hours after the court orders them to release us, they still kept us in jail until the last moments when the lawyers were constantly trying to force them to avoid the court order. Seven PM, so seven hours after the judge orders them to release us, finally we were kicked out on the street, being yelled at. They yelled at us and they kicked us out on the streets where the people were waiting for us.

They took us back home. And behold, we were followed by a police pickup truck and a helicopter. So helicopter and a pickup police truck was following us all the way to my home where we finally were able to eat something and drink.

Jeff King: You may have taken a nap at that point.

Artur Pawlowski: No, the nap came after doing the night hour but it was a quiet ordeal. Now, we’re facing contempt of court order that was never given to us, never presented to us, and it was never intended for us. It was for someone else.

Jeff King: So very helpful. People watching the video might have a knee-jerk reaction, negative or positive but getting the whole story is enlightening to say the least. So I don’t like the devil. I’m not going to be his advocate but I’m going to play devil’s advocate a little bit. So let’s unpack this. So first of all, the Japanese have a saying. It says, “The nail that stands out is the one that gets hammered.” And unfortunately though, what you’re pointing out, it sounds completely correct, is that the government officials in their frustration were using law for their own use and to express their anger and frustration over you and breaking law in doing so. So if that’s the case, it’s despicable. On one hand, it makes sense, expected and despicable.

But how do we parse this? So we were talking a little bit before the podcast. It’s like on the one hand, the government has a right to protect the health of the population. And I think it’d be a little more clear if this was the Spanish Flu. I think we’d be probably having a different conversation. But this is COVID. It’s nowhere near as deadly. You look at India, they’re probably going to have millions of deaths at this point. You say, “Well, the government has the right to protect. At the same time, they ignored the constitution probably.” I’m speaking from the American sense. So it’s pretty clear watching in America that the government was overstepping its authority. And until someone called them on it, they were going to keep going.

And then similar to you but in a different way, John MacArthur, Pastor, said, “You know what? State of California, you’re overstepping your authority. We’re not going to close church.” And the government threatened, shouted, threatened, pointed fingers, and then the courts quickly said, “He is correct. The government is overstepping its authority.”

But how do we parse these things? Because, again, especially if it was a much more serious pandemic, not discounting all the people that have died, but if it was a much more serious one, I think we’d probably have a different conversation. Is that fair? How do we parse these things together where the constitution says the church is protected and the Christians have rights and religious freedom is there and is a core right, especially in the states based on how we were formed as a country. It’s so core to our rights. And religious freedom means you have freedom of assembly. You have freedom of speech. You have freedom of a conscience. You have freedom of thought. And that’s why growing up in Poland, that’s why the church didn’t have rights because all those things were constricted. All of it was subservient to the power of the state.

So anyways, I’m rambling a bit because I don’t really have an answer. I don’t know how to put these things together. So I’m sure you’ve thought about this a lot. You tell me. Give me your opinion.

Artur Pawlowski: Well, everything that Adolf Hitler did, and we established that it was lawful, and for the benefit of the people. So all the concentration camps, you have to understand, were for the benefit of the people. All the millions that he slaughtered was for the benefit of the people. I remember when he came to power and he became the chancellor, democratically-elected chancellor of the German people, the first thing he did, he murdered 250 disabled people if you know your history. 250, 000 disabled people were murdered because he said that they’re useless.

Jeff King: They’re polluting the gene pool, right?

Artur Pawlowski: Right. Yeah, for the benefit of society let’s murder them and he did. That was his first step, 250,000 disabled people murdered. All of those things were done in the name of health. There was a Doctor Mengele. Doctor Mengele was… so-called doctor. He was a psychopath. But he was conducting all kinds of different experiments in order to save lives so he murdered thousands of children and thousands of people in the name of health. To save others, he murdered others.

So what we’re seeing right now is a medial tyranny. In order to save some, we’re going to destroy many. So the remedy for the lockdowns and for the masks and all those things that the government is doing cannot be more deadly than the problem. I do get it. There is a sickness. I understand that. I probably had it. I was sick a few months ago, really. Every year, actually, my kids go to school so every year they bring some form of flu. I got three children that go to school. Every single year, that come back with some kind of a flue, stomach flu, this flu, that flu. And of course, being with children you get it too because that’s how it does. Every year. Every year, we get some kind of a bug and then a few days, you feel under the weather. You move on and your life continues. And that’s how it was done for decades, for hundreds of years.

However, right now the government is saying that we’re in the middle of the deadliest pandemic ever. At first, I did my best to do what I was told to do, physical distancing, wear a mask, do whatever it takes that the feeding of the poor will continue because they really need the services. However very quickly, I find out that they were not interested in me obeying the restrictions. They were interested in me being shutdown and other churches as well.

So I realized there’s something more to the story. And we started to talk to doctors, biologists, biologists, people that are a lot smarter than me and you. And here is the story that I am hearing on the regular basis: The data doesn’t support the overreach of the government so in order for the government to claim that they’re doing this in our best interest it has to be in our best interest. However, that’s not what we’re seeing right now. And I’m not talking about conspiracy theories. I’m not talking about making up stuff. I’m talking about data. Now, let’s strictly focus on data.

The government says, “We’re shutting you down because we’re protecting your lives. We’re destroying your businesses. We’re destroying your churches because we want to protect lives.” More people died because of overdose and because of suicide then because of the COVID and that’s the statistics.

So if government really wanted to protect lives, they would outlaw the drugs that they just legalized and they would fight for the people that are overdosing themselves on the regular basis. We have crises in Canada. Thousands upon thousands of people are being murdered by their own hands by overdose and suicide. So that’s one part. We are hearing this from the government officials: That this situation might overpower our health system. This could overpower the capacity. So the language, you got to watch the language. The language says could, maybe, would, we got to be careful, it might happen. It’s not happening but it might.

And now, because we have the data, 2020, it’s a very interesting year because we are being shut down and the business is destroyed and yet we had less hospitalization in 2020 than in 2018 and in 2019. We had a record low of ICU admissions in the province of Alberta since 2015. When you look at the statistics of how many people died, when you look at the 20 year span…so you have 20 years ago, so many people died and then the next year. Next year, it’s from 500 to 1,000 people more. And the next year, about 500 to 1,000 more. And that’s the statistic. That’s how it’s going up to 2020. So what that tells us that there is no more deaths than any other normal year. It tells us that statistically, there’s more people being born, more people immigrating to our province. Therefore, you have 500 to 1,000 more deaths on the regular basis statistically for the past 20 years.

So my questions are very simple. Where is this great pandemic? Because in order to have a pandemic you need 12% of the population dying and you need to have that same situation in adjusting contrast. That’s what justifies a pandemic. The government ordinances is to protect the constitution; it’s to protect the Charter’s Rights and Freedoms. They cannot restrict your rights unless they have a very valid reason. My say to them and to you is this: They have never had the valid reason. They’re using this to destroy our liberties. They are not for the health. They’re not concerned with the health of the population. They’re using an invisible enemy to destroy our economy, to deprive us from our rights, to create extremely powerful and rich and extremely poor people. Only two categories, masters and slaves.

I’ll prove it to you. In the name of health and protection of people, you can go to Ikea with 480 people right now in Calgary. That’s a lot more than they have in the church. I can bring my whole church, half of the congregants, half of the neighborhood, my whole family and I can have a coffee right there and I’m protected by the law. It’s totally lawful. But I cannot have 100 people in the church. How come? I can go to Safeway. I can go to Walmart, shoulder-to-shoulder which I did yesterday. I went to the store shoulder-to-shoulder with people. We’re all happy campers and we all totally lawfully exercising our rights in Walmart or in Costco. Costco’s here in Calgary, the lineups are so huge you can’t see the end. You got a thousand people inside and that’s perfectly legal and okay.

Yet, across the street here I have a family-run business, a grocery store. They’re shut down in the name of health while there’s only one worker and it’s a lot healthier. Let’s say this is a massive pandemic, Black Plague, and all people are dying, it would be more healthy for me to shop over there because there’s less interactions with other human beings than in the Walmart. So how come I can go to Walmart with the 500 people but I cannot go to a grocery store that has full capacity of protecting-

Jeff King: Yeah, totally understand your argument. And why can we go to Costco? Why can we go to Home Depot? Why is the church being singled out which, of all places, has constitutional protection. And again, I’m speaking from the angle of the states but it sounds like it’s similar in Canada.

Artur Pawlowski: That’s right.

Jeff King: But where there’s constitutional protections, strong constitutional protection, why was that singled out? And that’s actually what the judge in California said. If I remember correctly, “You can’t just single out one business organization over another.”

So what you’re saying is look, the prescription outweighed the sickness. And it sounds like, in essence, you started practicing civil disobedience and said, “I’m not going along with it.” And it’s interesting because I just wonder how many churches are going to die. How many businesses have died? Go ahead.

Artur Pawlowski: 10 to 15 businesses are shutting down since the start of last March-

Jeff King: 10 per day?

Artur Pawlowski: 10-15 per day.

Jeff King: In Calgary? Is that what you’re saying?

Artur Pawlowski: Calgary alone. If you go to Calgary and you walk in the middle of the town, pretty much the only thing you will see is for lease, for rent, for sale, for lease, for rent, for sale. It’s a ghost town. Downtown in Calgary is a ghost town and if you know anything about downtown Calgary, just a few years ago, that was a vibrant and hub of oil. It was incredible. There was restaurants everywhere. It was buzzing with life. Now it’s a ghost town.

Jeff King: But there’s also the collapse of the oil price too which weighed into that. And again for devil’s advocate here, I just did a podcast last week with one of our staff and another brother in India. First of all, it’s hard to argue with what you’re saying that there was complete government overreach. These guys, they were handed way too much power and Ronald Reagan said, “Giving power to the government is like giving whiskey and car keys to an 18 year old guy.” It doesn’t work out well and there you saw it.

But at the same time, if you look at what’s happened in India, this is on the second wave and these guys are telling me that… You look at the numbers and it’s gone vertical. The chart has gone vertical and the hospitals are completely overwhelmed. And their loved ones, you can’t save them. There’s no getting to the hospital. You can’t even get oxygen and so they drive around trying to get to the hospital but they can’t. Or half the time, they don’t want to go to the hospital because that’s the death center.

Jeff King: So the devil’s advocate would say, “Hey, that’s what the government is trying to avoid.” Now, it never reached that point but that’s what I think the health inspector would say is, “Look, that’s what we’re trying to do.”

Artur Pawlowski: Absolutely.   India to western countries. I work in Africa so it’s similar circumstances.

Jeff King: I agree.

Let me jump on to another topic here. Again, when I saw the video, like I said, I have very mixed feelings about it. And then I heard your accent and I was like, “This man grew up under communism.” I figured that really affected your worldview. Now, the other one I am wondering about is the religious freedom situation and trajectory in Canada. Can you unpack, what is going on with religious freedom? Looking back over the past couple of decades, what are you seeing in Canada?

Artur Pawlowski: Well, I see we are losing our rights and our freedoms left and right. For example, about 30 years ago the government decided to take the prayer out of the schools. So prayer was outlawed. You could not pray in a public school however when a bigger number of Muslims came to the country, now they can pray. Christians cannot. So you have double standards and these double standards we are seeing everywhere left and right. For example, I was with my brother David arrested Saturday. We were released on Monday. And Wednesday, in the city of Calgary, Imam called all his followers to come and they had about 2,3,000 people on a post that those videos on my YouTube channel Arthur Pawlowski and you can watch it for yourself. And there’s no physical distancing. Many people do not wear masks. Imam is shouting, yelling, screaming, whatever.

Jeff King: So selective enforcement, yeah.

Artur Pawlowski: And that’s all acceptable and lawful. The police are nowhere to be found. No AHS. No bylaws services. No tickets. No arrests for the Imam. So the same week, Christians and pastors are being arrested, Imams and the Muslims are going to receive a free pass. So this has been going on for decades.

Another thing is that the government came in and removed the Bibles from the public square. Bibles were removed from prisons. Bibles were removed from government offices and they didn’t stop there. The 10 Commandments were also removed from the government buildings and also from the courthouses. So now, there’s no 10 Commandments to remind us about the higher law and accountability that we should all have. Prayer, bibles, 10 Commandments removed.

Jeff King: Let’s go forward though, more dangerous things even. Haven’t they been trying to control what a pastor can say or can’t say from a pulpit? What’s been happening more recently?

Artur Pawlowski: Well, 2008 I received a letter from the Revenue Canada from the federal government and this is what they said: Because I speak negatively on the topic of abortion, homosexuality, and divorce, I am not allegeable to have a charitable status.

Jeff King: Oh, my gosh.

Artur Pawlowski: They took my charitable status again because they say I speak negatively on those three topics. So that’s 2005. We legalized homosexuality and they passed laws left and right telling that we cannot criticize. We cannot speak on this topic. So this is the latest law last May was passed in the city of Calgary: If you convert or attempt to convert a homosexual to Christianity, you can face $10,000 ticket in the city of Calgary. You’re not allowed to preach to homosexuals. You’re not allowed to convert them. You’re not allowed to pray for them. If you come to me and you say this, and I’m not making this up, you can Google it. It’s a law passed last May. If you come to me and say, “Hey, Pastor Art, I am struggling with a homosexual sin. I need your help,” I cannot, I cannot by law, I cannot tell you, “Well, let me pray for you. Let me tell you what the Bible says about this topic.”

Jeff King: That’s the same in Australia where they’ve been trying to push it through, yes.

Artur Pawlowski: God calls it abomination and a sin. If I say that and if I can tell you, “You can be a heterosexual male. Let’s pray that God will give you the strength and the power to be what God created you to be,” that’s $10,000 ticket for me. Even if it’s a private conversation. I didn’t go to you. You came to me for help.

Jeff King: Yeah, and the government’s saying, “I’m going to control your thought. I’m going to control your speech.”

Artur Pawlowski: $10,000 ticket. Of course, I broke that many times and I will never deny anyone that comes to me and I did regularly from the police. I preached about homosexuality so now give me the ticket if that’s what you want, you Nazis, but I’m not going to stop doing what my God’s telling me to do.

So this is progressing. This is moving forward. You have abortion clinics open. You’ve got liquor store and marijuana stores open throughout, at the beginning of this so-called pandemic but you’ve got churches targeted. You’ve got Imams preaching whatever they’re preaching, opening their mosques, no problem. But churches are being targeted and chained and fenced off right now in our country. It’s lawlessness, unequal application of the law. Double standards are at every corner right now and corruption and hypocrisy at the greatest level we’ve ever seen in Canada coming from the politicians.

Jeff King: Wow. Well, it’s a disturbing picture to say the least and I’m just glad we had this conversation. Like I said, it’s one thing to see the video. It’s another thing to hear the whole history and the misapplication of law and that extreme heavy-handedness and it certainly looks like payback for you standing up and standing out and not getting in line.

Artur Pawlowski: 100% because let me quote to you the premiere for Jason Kenney. It’s a pure vengeance. This is what he said when we were arrested. He goes outside in front of the cameras and he says… And listen to this. Listen to warning. “I will crush Pawlowski.” I’m thinking to myself, “Excuse me. I’m feeding your people. I’m not charging a penny of taxpayer’s money. I’m doing this as a volunteer. Myself even, I don’t get a salary. I do this as a volunteer. And I’m helping you people. You should be helping them and I’m doing it free of charge. I opened the church. That’s my crime. And I invited anyone that wants to come. I don’t force anyone to come. It’s an open door. If you want to come, you come. And what was my crime? Preaching the gospel, worshiping God, praying with people. And you say, no, on the public record, you’re going to crush Pawlowski? You’re going to crush my wife? My children? My mother? My father? My brother? Who are you, you evil, wicked, want-to-be tyrant, Jason Kenney. You are a sick psychopath.”

Artur Pawlowski: Whatever was coming out of his mouth shows this guy is not capable of even recognizing how evil he is, evil, wicked, corrupted-to-the-core individual.

Jeff King: All right, my friend. Well, we’re going to give you the last word. That was it. And thank you so much for being a guest on Into the Deep.